Drysuit/wetsuit/waders

nice one and great advice

Hi Steve, thanks you for putting this up, it's amazing how many guys I speak to who are convinced that they are going to be fine winter paddling in just a wetsuit. Also the ones that think that since they have a wetsuit they don't need a BA. At just over £400 for a brand new 2012 Multisport 4, it's really not a huge amount for something that may very well save your life.

As Steve knows I was the person who tried waders in the confines of Runcorn marina and I was unable to self rescue and I hope Zebra and Buddy don't mind that I want to show you the post I wrote about the event.

zebrakayak.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3493

I know some people have always used waders with no problems and I will not try to persuade otherwise but I will NEVER use them again.

Phil

Not in the slightest Steve, I have told the story to others with real feeling, lets spread the word

Phil

I have the same, you will not regret buying that. Get a block of beeswax to use on the zip before and after each trip.

Phil

Great post, lots of vital advice. However I must take issue with one piece of information.
Wetsuits simply do not have to be wet to work, they do, unlike drysuits, work when wet because the amount of water let in is so small it warms up to body temp quickly without cooling the wearer down.
Neoprene and its derivatives are excellent insulators, neoprene waders would be slightly impracticle if you had to fill them with water to keep warm. My winter wetsuits have dryzips and good seals and even after multiple crashes in waves or at 30 knots while windsurfing let in hardly any water, they are also loose fitting around shoulders and arms so not to bad for paddling.
I agree that overall a drysuit is probably more practical for kayaking, more comfortable for sitting around and paddling, the ability to choose your level of warmth with undergarments but if you already have a good quality , well fitting winter wetsuit there is no need to go straight out and spend several hundred pounds on a drysuit just to be more comfortable.
There are several situations where I would feel much safer in a wetsuit. If there is any damage to your drysuit, any small holes or your buddy hasn't quite done the zip up properly and you end up in the water a drysuit is going to be a liability when it fills up, I've been there.
If you get seperated from your craft and have to swim after it or god forbid to the shore then it's a wetsuit everytime.
I do see the advantages of a drysuit but people should not be so keen to right off wetsuits for winter kayaking they have their place and if it's windy just wear a cheap kag over the top, I've never been uncomfortably cold.
However there are many times I would have sold my sole for a vanity zip in my wetsuits!

You are right Steve, I reckon the average guy would walk into Decathalon and buy a shortie 3mm suit for thirty quid and think they are ok.

I have said elsewhere that it is personal choice....if you have the knowledge to make the decision but if I was advising a newcomer every time I would recommend a drysuit

As with all safety equipment though it should be properly maintained, regularly checked for wear and tear and properly fitted.

Terry

Great post Buddy

I would say most freshwater kayak fishermen come from a fishing background
As a result are incline to try to make do with their existing equipment..... eg inadequate waders or maybe a wetsuit.

This post is there to put them on the right path to safety which without any doubt is a DRYSUIT couple with a good PFD

one thing I would add is IMO material socks are more versatile than latex, most latex sock users I know complain about cold feet

Hi all , An interesting topic this and one that has been discussed at length for many years.
A wetsuit does not as popular belief, have to be wet to work and to say neoprene has no thermal properties? - it is one of the best insulating materials around . If you combine it with a Dry Cag and Pants there is little to better it. This is for surface watersports, subsurface a very thin layer of water gets trapped between the skin and inner surface this warms to body temperature and enhances the neoprenes thermal properties. I've swam and snorkelled in mine and it is difficult to get the water in as the pressure pushes the suit against your body - oh and you float like a cork when wearing one

I don't wear wader's for Kayaking now but have done in the past, but, that's just what I prefer for my comfort. If I had to I would happily wear waders with a wading belt and Cag, the water pressure when submerged stops water entering (think of the pressure you feel on your lower body when wading) the belt will stop any ingress and the cag effectivley seals off the top of the waders anyhow .

Check these out Jim has been around for a long time .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYwG52p4yjs

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m0_naq0-qc

Thermal clothing under a drysuit is all well and good but the drysuit material is very thin and quite easily torn/ripped, once water is in and the thermal clothing is wet it definately has no thermal properties, however, if there is a good fitting wetsuit underneath you'll stay warm and dry and bouyant (always wear a PFD though).

Wetsuits are most certainly not just for summer use and warmer water (8 years paddling and surfing in the North Sea proves that)
A good fitting 5/3mm full wetsuit is great for the winter, a 3/2mm shortie is comfortable for the summer months, a Cag rolled up in the crate is handy to put on to keep the wind out

I'm definately not against drysuits they are great, but make sure to get a breathable one as you'll end up as wet inside as if you'd been practicing re entries wearing just your normal clothes.

There is nothing I can see in this post about the fitting of either wet of drysuits. Bear in mind that a loose/poorly fitted neck seal on a drysuit will let water in and soak the clothing beneath if you capsize, a loose fitting wetsuit will not help you benefit from it's thermal/ bouyant properties.

A point to mention is the combination of Drycag/Drypants I've found this combination excellent and more versatile than a full drysuit

Most of this is from experience I hope it helps.

Wayne.

No Terry, it's good to have various options when it comes to clothing, it's true that freshwater in general due to the average size loses heat quicker than the sea in winter and is warmer (in general) in the summer. Flowing water is a different area all together, if you hold onto something after falling in and let the water flow over you it quickly disperses the heat from your body, however if you go with the flow the water is not flushing heat away from you as quickly so it could give you time to reach the shore ( that's another story ).

There are very safe and warm/resilient clothing options without advising only drysuits, they were not always as easily available as they are now. There are a lot of new Yak anglers coming along who may not be able to afford a Drysuit but a good quality well fitted wetsuit can be a fraction of the cost, and offer as much if not more protection than a drysuit, especially a non breathable one. Cag and Pants are a great combo , It's better that a newcomer is given as many options with plus and minus points as possible from Yak anglers who have tried different options. When I joined Andy out on the Yak there was very very little info here in the UK and we learned a lot by trial and error, anyone coming along now is lucky/unlucky as the case may be, as there is a wealth of knowledge/advice out there, but there is also misleading/poor advice

Tommo,

How do you find paddling in the wet suit? I have used a quality suit just the once on a team day at Rutland Water and I have to say it was probably a little small for my ample figure.... I would not have fancied paddling for too long in it though. :-)

Hi lads, I'm trying very hard to get out of my own little bubble & post in other forums so feel free to email me any interesting links like this thread

I got into yak fishing via yak surfing and being an avid shore angler. I went out on my scooter in 2002-5 and fished with a spinning rod in my shorty then 5/3 titanium lined wetsuit that I still manage to squeeze into lol. Dry suits weren't around then or not in yak fishing anyway or were too expensive to buy and especially for me anyway.
I'm with Richard & Wayne on the wetsuit issue having had 10 years of experience in both lakes and sea in one in ALL conditions (trust me). Waders are one of them issues that'll always cause a stir. I think neoprene chesties are fine but rubber ones I can't comment on having not tried them in the water myself but I've swam in the north sea in chesties & floatation jacket with only my arms getting wet! I kept on fishing from the beach afterwards too lol
Dry suits are a fantastic addition to yak fishing but IMHO give the paddler a false sense of safety & a sense of invincibility which is why I've nicknamed them "invincibility suits". I'll get one this year to drag my fat arse out of the dark ages and get with it just so I can see for myself & then pass judgement on them from an honest opinion.
The thing I find most disturbing and has cropped up only in the last few years is the fact that due to the sudden surge of drysuited yak anglers, mostly noobs who've been introduced by noobs, more & more are going out in riskier & colder conditions like fog, snow, swells etc. simply cos they've got an "invincibility" suit on so can do it. "I'm ok I've got my drysuit & VHF with me" sort of attitude which trust me is gunna get someone killed soon! Whether your paddling on the sea or a lake it doesn't matter! dry suit, wetsuit or whatever your wearing if your alone on the water your much more likely to get out of bother if your with someone you trust. Get a PADDLE BUDDY! I noticed that isn't on the safety list above and going by my 10 years on the sea on a yak it should be number one above VHF, flares etc. because being alone & stuck is a lot worse than having a buddy help you or you help them & who'd be 1st on the scene? PADDLE BUDDY

Winter is a time to oil reels, clean the gear of salt & spruce up to get ready for the coming season with the odd chance of getting out on a mild winters day like the north east meet on the 6th

My wetsuit though has always been my safety device, the PFD is merely for show/storage and to put me on my back if I fall unconscious as the wetsuit is impossible to sink in. I can't stress enough how buoyant it is, honestly but in the name of the sport I must wear my PFD out on the yak to promote safety. I've been half a mile out in July & put the PFD in the hull then rang wayne at home to say I'm "gan for a swim" then dove off the yak at high tide on a neap tide, flat calm and burning hot! I swam around and lay on my back & let the water run through the wetsuit to cool me off then climbed back on & carried on fishing with PFD on. I did that cos I knew my surroundings, knew I was safe & had backup via VHF and phone if I needed it but the key element was experience and knowledge.
Too many are going out there in harsh & freezing conditions with only the simplest of errors to kill them, dry suit or not! I reckon I'd hole my dry suit or rip it either with a hook or fish barb or something stupid with me being so clumsy but my wetsuits had a hole in the thigh for years without doing any harm to me or it in the water.
There's so many choices to make and so many opinions but for me personally I find that there;s too many noob on noob situations where yak anglers get a mate involved then teach them all their knowledge and it really does scare me

Anyway, I've worn a wetsuit for about 10 years and I'm still here

edit: an after thought; there are many types of wetsuits and it's important to understand them. A '5mm steamer' is a proper diving wetsuit with 5mm all over it whereas mine has only 3mm on the arms/legs making it easier to paddle in and is why maybe ppl think it's hard to paddle in one? look em up

The water came into the waders to the point that I was unable to raise my feet high enough in the water to self rescue and the effort was sapping my strength very quickly. This took place in the confines of Runcorn marina with others very close by, one of those was in fact Buddy. I had a new cag on with fly fishing waders with a built in belt. The overlap of the cag was about 10'' so you would have thought it was enough to keep the water out but that was not the case.
One thought crossed my mind was that the effect of the cold water makes you breath in severely, possibly causing enough break in the fit of the waders to my body that let water get in . Your guess is as good as mine but one thing is for sure, I will not try to master the art of wearing waders on a kayak.

Phil

How do you keep your feet warm in a wetsuit at this time of year