tommo
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by tommo on Jan 26, 2013 22:19:56 GMT
I'm not saying that a wetsuit is the only option, far from it. But you can't just advocate drysuits as the only clothing choice for winter use, there are other safe and resilient options, as I've said - cag and pants are great and very versatile, oh by the way lureman 7mm neoprene winter surf boots are as warm as you can get, very comfortable to . It was stated that waders are a non starter, I have used them in the past but I never practised a re entry in them, so when Phil asked if I'd ever been into very cold water in them I had to remedy that and you can't get much colder than the North Sea in January, Andy and I went out today and I wore waders, cag and PFD and had a short swim ;D. It's not about wetsuit v drysuit it's about several choices all with good and bad points so that the newcomer is better informed to make a choice. I must say I've done loads of re entries but this combo was as bouyant as any I've worn, I was like a cork, try as a may I couldn't push down enough to completely submerge Your right Buddy - Stay indoors - roll on summer ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEikYB_2FL4Wayne.
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lureman
Predator
Back on fresh water a lot more this season
Posts: 80
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Post by lureman on Jan 26, 2013 23:24:01 GMT
I'm not saying that a wetsuit is the only option, far from it. But you can't just advocate drysuits as the only clothing choice for winter use, there are other safe and resilient options, as I've said - cag and pants are great and very versatile, oh by the way lureman 7mm neoprene winter surf boots are as warm as you can get, very comfortable to . It was stated that waders are a non starter, I have used them in the past but I never practised a re entry in them, so when Phil asked if I'd ever been into very cold water in them I had to remedy that and you can't get much colder than the North Sea in January, Andy and I went out today and I wore waders, cag and PFD and had a short swim ;D. It's not about wetsuit v drysuit it's about several choices all with good and bad points so that the newcomer is better informed to make a choice. I must say I've done loads of re entries but this combo was as bouyant as any I've worn, I was like a cork, try as a may I couldn't push down enough to completely submerge Your right Buddy - Stay indoors - roll on summer ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEikYB_2FL4Wayne. I do hope you two know what your doing and that no newcomers get in trouble following your advice
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Post by philpot on Jan 26, 2013 23:31:19 GMT
Fantastic guys, well done you to prove a point and the film showed very clearly it worked a treat. I don't know why it worked so well for you and did not work for me but it did. It makes me wonder if the neoprene waders makes the difference.
I assume you stayed dry or quite dry as I could not quite hear on the film. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to carry out the test. I have no faith in the waders I have after the experience I had BUT when it is warmer, I will do it again just to serve as a test for my own mind. If I had some neoprene waders it would be interesting to compare the outcome.
Phil
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lozz
Junior Member
Posts: 13
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Post by lozz on Jan 26, 2013 23:46:19 GMT
How do you keep your feet warm in a wetsuit at this time of year By pi$$ing in the wetsuit and letting it run down your legs ;D ;D
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Post by Izzetafox on Jan 27, 2013 7:08:54 GMT
Wayne, Andy,
Thank you so much for doing that and for posting it here that really shows your committment to the sport and correct information. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the main thing that has to be made very, very clear : " Waders are an option so long as they are ' NEOPRENE CHEST WADERS WITH A PROPERLY FITTED WADING BELT AND A CAG TOP OVERLAPPING'!"
Terry
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Post by stonefish on Jan 27, 2013 10:46:16 GMT
iv seen this debate
I try to stay out of controversy because it usually ends bad
I have been at sea , lake ,pond for the last 33 years born into it I have done loads of courses in every manner of water sport I'm a instruct er in some and a coach as well not just yaking
the names give it away
waders wetsuit drysuit semi dry steamer
its good to practise all manner of safe recovery
but preppier for the worst !
forget you just rolled your boat and making a effort to get on it !
pretend ins tad your ko,d
neo waders with floating feet your face down in the water not good!
wet suit fine every surfer has one !
dry suit if your warm inside and it dont leak fine!
paddle pants cag etc ,close to the bone in a real bad situation ,,like you got a real wipe out that compromises the layers and then ko,d ya
You could say were a helmet ,,but i wont! most of you wont ether
rubber waders same as paddle pants in a way !
if you wont the best of both worlds a semi dry steamer 5/3mm
This is just my op ion i feel its a well placed op ion but just mine
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Post by hewy40 on Jan 27, 2013 10:48:58 GMT
The issue i have with any wader/drypants cag combo is water will seep in if you are immersed for any length of time, this will cool you down quicker and could put you in danger, especially if separated from the kayak. I'll be sticking with my drysuit.
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Post by Izzetafox on Jan 27, 2013 10:56:45 GMT
I think Stoney has hit the nail on the head..... What is the product designed for? What would the manufactiurers recommended use be? I have been a drysuit fan but if funds permit, they don't at the moment , I may well try a quality wetsuit. I do have a pair of neoprene waders that will stay reserved for trout fishing. I think one point that should be constantly pushed is to inspect your drysuit. I cannot remember which of you found to your distress that a worn drysuit can be dangerous. In fact they do have a 'shelf-life' and once they have the slightest wear or damage they can be lethal. We need to be very vigilant. Ask yourself, 'When did I last inspect my drysuit thoroughly?' I appreciate many of you will have done so regularly, but be honest.....most will not have done! Terry
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buddy
Full Member
Posts: 39
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Post by buddy on Jan 27, 2013 11:56:31 GMT
Hi Stonefish. Experience counts for a lot. You have obviously seen and used many different products and improvements over the years, Your post is excellent and has points well worth considering. The post was put up to get people involved as they use different products and methods. By the response the post has been a success. Thanks for your input. Steve.
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Post by Izzetafox on Jan 27, 2013 12:03:36 GMT
It 's only by discussion that people can make a reasoned decision and the points raised here have furthered the issue.it has between interesting.
Terry
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Post by hewy40 on Jan 27, 2013 12:53:58 GMT
I think the point you stress about checking your drysuit is so important terry as a leaking drysuit is probably the most dangerous of all.
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Post by stonefish on Jan 27, 2013 13:14:43 GMT
Hi Stonefish. Experience counts for a lot. You have obviously seen and used many different products and improvements over the years, Your post is excellent and has points well worth considering. The post was put up to get people involved as they use different products and methods. By the response the post has been a success. Thanks for your input. Steve. Thank you I have seen loads of delelopments from semi dry,,titanuim the intro of carbon kevalar , beathable suits etc My 1st wetsuit was a diatom long john specaily made for a 4 year old,, i dont think thay are still there now they are near philpots house The one image burned in my mind is this While windsurfing i was 8-9 i found a body in the water YUK coz 2 weeks before i found some wellies sticking out the water that turned out to be a suciced victim The image burned in my mind is a body floats! Face down in the water i was young and had a few night mares but was ok but i still to this day could dissicribe every last moment It is a very hard lesson to learn after its too late people are not aquatic by nature Seals have blubber Frogs have amphibus lungs fish have gills We need to every effort for us too be adapted to a place we were never ment to be What ever people chose plase make every effoert to do it the best you can afford
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Post by philpot on Jan 27, 2013 14:55:20 GMT
One thing we have achieved here is to talk this through and that we have done. There are some strong opinions and beliefs about a product type which have to be taken into account as they are from experienced kayakers. As with all things in life, we are swayed to one thought or another and quite often this is from past experience. It is also fair to say that technology has had a bearing on materials that are used which can change the perception we hold on a product or method.
I have learned from Tomo's film that the wader/cag worked well and that a winter wetsuit will also do the job. I hold my doubts re the waders/cag with the type I own and I openly admit it could be the product type which caused my problems. I am really curious about the winter wetsuit and will look into that for more information to ensure that I am not talking through my rear.
I thank everyone for some really good contributions which offer serious food for thought and perhaps the way we think or at least the way I think.
Phil
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andy
New Member
Kayak Fishing UK
Posts: 4
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Post by andy on Jan 27, 2013 18:34:02 GMT
alright lads, some great input here lureman; I'd stick my neck on the block n say me n wayne are possibly amongst the most experienced yak anglers in the UK right now having been doing it regularly for 10 years and 8 years as buddies. I'd put my life in Waynes hands if I had too n that goes a long way! So this is why we made the video, to prove he wouldn't float upside down (like Al said) and to prove my wetsuit is fookin mint (as agreed with by Al). I know it's hard for ppl to agree on these subjects so we both find it difficult when we see ppl promoting safety by saying "get a dry suit" and be done. What's been picked up on is the fact you need to check it for leaks regularly which is brilliant to hear Our issue with the thread & info was the dismissal of gear we've used and proved is worthy for the sport ok? nowt personal or to damage the site or owt hewy40; the whole concept of kayak fishing is that you sit on top of the kayak with any submersion being to get back on the kayak. I do understand your point though & nobody will change your opinion & there's now thousands of others just like you. Our video was brief and I think we should do it again for longer in warmer climates of course just to see if there is any seapage. All in the name of the sport & progress. Your happy with your dry suit which is fine, keep it in a bag as soon as it's removed to stop it getting holed & every other trip jump in the sea at chest height to check for leaks, it's no biggy as long as there's no surf @terry: nice one for pointing out the dry suit issue/holes It's the main reason I haven't got one, other than that it's the cost like you. Already owning a wetsuit I don't really need one and I've paddled the lakes and sea for nearly 10 years and am still here to discuss it A wetsuit over the lake district is almost too much on most occasions, a shorty during summer is fine. I find the 5/3mm suit gets too hot & I need to dive off to cool off most times. You'll get a decent one for around £100 (get a titanium lined one). philpot: Was it rubber waders you tried? as this is THE burning issue around the world am sure we'd all agree? I think we may have got mixed up here as there's a definite difference! Neoprene is 100% waterproof and close fitting too so wouldn't leak even without a belt (mine didn't when I fell in the north sea but am a little fatty, lol). We need to try a pair of rubber waders on & video it as the issue was that some say they fill & others say they cling to you. I cannot comment on it but will deffo give it a go in summer Phil your open mindedness is a pleasure to see @al: your latest post is so true m8, we need to try all aspects of approach seeing as we are going into an environment we weren't supposed to be in. Thanks for understanding lads, I feel a bit sh*t coming in here and spouting off which is never my intention so aplogies if it sounds like that. I know the thread was posted with the best possible intention and hats off for doing it My own personal concern at the moment is winter kayak fishing. It scares me the amount of people going out in harsh winter conditions 'cos they've got a dry suit! Someones gunna get killed soon I can see it coming! I've written an article in KFUK today about it and will publish it later on. Winters for sitting making rigs, repairing gear, oiling reels etc its not for risking ya life cheers
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Post by philpot on Jan 27, 2013 18:42:30 GMT
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tommo
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by tommo on Jan 27, 2013 19:03:16 GMT
Hi Phil, I've always wanted a pair of breathable waders like those, when you said you'd had problems I started to think you may have been wearing the old thick rubber waders that don't fit close to your body. I would have thought a belt and cag with modern breathable stocking foot waders would have been fine, they are pretty much the same as what Jim Sammons is wearing in the video I posted in my first post .
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Post by philpot on Jan 27, 2013 19:27:11 GMT
Yes you are right and that is why I was happy to try them. They are so comfortable to paddle in, I was so disappointed at the result. I did notice that they are a bit slippy compared to neoprene so maybe the cag top just let the water in.
Phil
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Post by Izzetafox on Jan 27, 2013 19:41:15 GMT
Andy, I am more than happy you posted on this thread. You have triggered a lot of debate here and elsewhere It is good that this issue is discussed so broadly. We have to face it there are a number of ways to dress for paddling opinions will always vary. Some people will hate a method which others praise. The main thing is to have a reasoned discussion where everyone can put their ideas forward and justify them as they see fit. If there is definitive evidence one way or another then it should be discussed and not ridiculed I have enjoyed this thread and learned from it and I believe others will have done too. I value the contribution to our site from you and Wayne. Thank you Terry
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lozz
Junior Member
Posts: 13
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Post by lozz on Jan 27, 2013 19:48:55 GMT
Hero suit i wonder who's wearing the hero suit self-resuce just to make the point uks most experienced kayak anglers. While i can't say waders and cag are bad idea ,as i use paddle pants (longJohn style and cag)similar thing ,I wear them in the apropriate conditions.I have modifyed my paddlepants/drypants by removing the feet and fitting wellies.I have practiced many selfresuces in them and 9 times out of 10 i will get some water ingress.Now transfer this to a real life situation not ready for it with gear and not in 8ft of water. Your out 2 miles from your launch winter fishing for some reason you end up in the drink rods out anchor down you probly would take a little longer to get back on ,not being ready youd probly get your head wet so some water down the back of your .All well and good your back on your yak cold wet and miserable now due to the trip being cut short your faced with a 2 mile paddle back against the tide still i spose it will warm you up.Where s in my drysuit id be catching cod pi$$ my self at the 'idiot' ( Edited by Admin) that came fishing in his waders
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Post by hewy40 on Jan 27, 2013 19:58:11 GMT
Andy as you know when some people have come off their kayaks and for some reason couldn't get back on after several attempts they get tired and end up hanging on to the kayak still fully immersed. This is when water could start seeping in, while they were waiting for help. Worse still in strong tides getting swept away from the kayak if you've forgotten to leash yourself. To check a drysuit for holes i simply leave as much air in it then crouch down as if to 'burp' the suit but wait a while to see if any air escapes, if its airtight its water tight. You say about not going out in the winter, the thing is that's when the bristol channel fishes best for those big ole cod ;D
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distinguished guest
Guest
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Post by distinguished guest on Jan 27, 2013 19:59:28 GMT
Nothing changes does it Andy.I left your forum years ago sick of the sight of pictures of you without a PFD on.What's next a bin liner? What a great example you are regards richi
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Post by snapper on Jan 27, 2013 20:21:34 GMT
How do you keep your feet warm in a wetsuit at this time of year By pi$$ing in the wetsuit and letting it run down your legs ;D ;D My ex used to do that. Only warmth that ever came out of the cold-hearted bitch.
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Post by egbertnobacon on Jan 27, 2013 21:50:43 GMT
How does a PFD put you on your back if unconcious? ?
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Post by stonefish on Jan 27, 2013 21:53:09 GMT
How does a PFD put you on your back if unconcious? ? if ya feet are floating ,,spose its luck face down face ip
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Post by Zebedee111 on Jan 27, 2013 22:32:09 GMT
How does a PFD put you on your back if unconcious? ? It doesn't that's a life jacket! A life jacket has a much higher buoyancy rating in excess of 200 newtons most and you will notice the chambers are behind the head and on the chest! Causing the body to be suspended head up! Your Pfd should say not for life saving on its label! I know mine does
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Post by egbertnobacon on Jan 27, 2013 22:45:43 GMT
EXACTLY Hi lads, I'm trying very hard to get out of my own little bubble & post in other forums so feel free to email me any interesting links like this thread I got into yak fishing via yak surfing and being an avid shore angler. I went out on my scooter in 2002-5 and fished with a spinning rod in my shorty then 5/3 titanium lined wetsuit that I still manage to squeeze into lol. Dry suits weren't around then or not in yak fishing anyway or were too expensive to buy and especially for me anyway. I'm with Richard & Wayne on the wetsuit issue having had 10 years of experience in both lakes and sea in one in ALL conditions (trust me). Waders are one of them issues that'll always cause a stir. I think neoprene chesties are fine but rubber ones I can't comment on having not tried them in the water myself but I've swam in the north sea in chesties & floatation jacket with only my arms getting wet! I kept on fishing from the beach afterwards too lol Dry suits are a fantastic addition to yak fishing but IMHO give the paddler a false sense of safety & a sense of invincibility which is why I've nicknamed them "invincibility suits". I'll get one this year to drag my fat arse out of the dark ages and get with it just so I can see for myself & then pass judgement on them from an honest opinion. The thing I find most disturbing and has cropped up only in the last few years is the fact that due to the sudden surge of drysuited yak anglers, mostly noobs who've been introduced by noobs, more & more are going out in riskier & colder conditions like fog, snow, swells etc. simply cos they've got an "invincibility" suit on so can do it. "I'm ok I've got my drysuit & VHF with me" sort of attitude which trust me is gunna get someone killed soon! Whether your paddling on the sea or a lake it doesn't matter! dry suit, wetsuit or whatever your wearing if your alone on the water your much more likely to get out of bother if your with someone you trust. Get a PADDLE BUDDY! I noticed that isn't on the safety list above and going by my 10 years on the sea on a yak it should be number one above VHF, flares etc. because being alone & stuck is a lot worse than having a buddy help you or you help them & who'd be 1st on the scene? PADDLE BUDDY Winter is a time to oil reels, clean the gear of salt & spruce up to get ready for the coming season with the odd chance of getting out on a mild winters day like the north east meet on the 6th My wetsuit though has always been my safety device, the PFD is merely for show/storage and to put me on my back if I fall unconscious as the wetsuit is impossible to sink in. I can't stress enough how buoyant it is, honestly but in the name of the sport I must wear my PFD out on the yak to promote safety. I've been half a mile out in July & put the PFD in the hull then rang wayne at home to say I'm "gan for a swim" then dove off the yak at high tide on a neap tide, flat calm and burning hot! I swam around and lay on my back & let the water run through the wetsuit to cool me off then climbed back on & carried on fishing with PFD on. I did that cos I knew my surroundings, knew I was safe & had backup via VHF and phone if I needed it but the key element was experience and knowledge. Too many are going out there in harsh & freezing conditions with only the simplest of errors to kill them, dry suit or not! I reckon I'd hole my dry suit or rip it either with a hook or fish barb or something stupid with me being so clumsy but my wetsuits had a hole in the thigh for years without doing any harm to me or it in the water. There's so many choices to make and so many opinions but for me personally I find that there;s too many noob on noob situations where yak anglers get a mate involved then teach them all their knowledge and it really does scare me Anyway, I've worn a wetsuit for about 10 years and I'm still here edit: an after thought; there are many types of wetsuits and it's important to understand them. A '5mm steamer' is a proper diving wetsuit with 5mm all over it whereas mine has only 3mm on the arms/legs making it easier to paddle in and is why maybe ppl think it's hard to paddle in one? look em up
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Post by hewy40 on Feb 2, 2013 15:23:53 GMT
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Post by Daz on Feb 2, 2013 15:36:45 GMT
great find and a great watch just goes to show
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Post by philpot on Feb 2, 2013 20:10:42 GMT
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tommo
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by tommo on Feb 2, 2013 20:42:04 GMT
Phil that's as good as you'll get to compare those three, there was only the wetsuit missing. I did notice in the game on videos that wearing waders over the pond was quite popular. mmm! I wonder if these lads will get 'witch hunted'
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